Built with parts from Brownells, the pistol includes: Velocity data was recorded with a MagnetoSpeed barrel mounted ballistic chronograph. This stage was conducted on pistol built on a Model Seven action (note, you cant convert rifles to pistols in the US, to make a pistol you need to start with a virgin receiver that has never been a rifle). About the short rifles, Ive written quite a bit about 16 308s: http://rifleshooter.com/2015/02/the-16-inch-308-winchester-bolt-action-rifle/. The answer may surprise you. Yes, I am very impressed. Comparing the data from the 30 shot strings (28 2824 and 16.5 2555) to the 5 shot strings (28 2823 and 16.5 2561) I found a loss of 269 ft/sec (23.4 ft/sec per inch) as the barrel was cut. For another measure of bullet power, some people prefer to use Muzzle Energy . 'https://ssl' : 'http://www') + '.google-analytics.com/ga.js'; them by name does not constitute an endorsement of any kind. Published Mar 29, 2021 12:55 PM EDT. The .308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO was created in 1952 and is based on the .300 savage round a round created in 1920. cartridge is also about .2-inch shorter. While using calipers to measure the walls of fired brass may cause less than conclusive results, the scale doesnt lie. The test protocol was repeated for the next length. This could have some potentially expensive consequences. Doing the opposite is a bit more complicated. This bullet at 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs of energy. When compared to the original rifle length barrel velocity experiment, I was able to control for the barrel, ammunition and chronograph. We'd like to personally and specifically thank Pat Childs at Fin & Feather in Iowa City, as he not only helped get most of our ammunition and other supplies, he was the brilliant gunsmith who worked with us to make this insane project much more practical.Without his help all of this would have been much more difficult and perhaps impossible. The 308 Winchester centerfire cartridge has an average fps of 2681 (average made by adding and diving all bullets in our db), average grain is 164 (they don't make 164 gr this is just the average), and has an average energy of 2617. using Hornady 168gr A-MAX Superformance Match factory ammo. Like the 5.56 versus .223 comparison, understanding the differences between 7.6251 NATO and .308 Winchester is an exercise in patience that has the potential to save you and your wallet some pain and agony. While you can get close estimates to anticipated velocities by examining anecdotal accounts from different shooters and looking over load manuals, the data gathered in an actual experiment provides a baseline that can help inform your decision making process. Once data was gathered for each cartridge at a given barrel length, the rifle was cleared and the bolt was removed. Contact the author here. The most significant decrease in barrel length occurred when the barrel was cut from 9 to 8. 100% real. performance comparable to the proven .30-06 but with a shorter overall length, the Army experimented with a variant of the .300 Savage that is designated the T65, a good two years before the 7.6251 saw the Pentagons official green light, NATO also adopted the new American cartridge, the newly-adopted M14, the first American battle rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm, check out this article by Bison Ballistics, For more information on headspace, check out Oleg Volks excellent write-up at Cheaper Than Dirt, an association of the nations leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components, measured in PSI, fractions of an inch, and millimeters, the nominal difference is around 12,000 PSI, although in practice, that number is closer to 4,000, Elasticity describes a materials ability to expand and contract, while plasticity refers to a materials ability to be stretched into a new shape without breaking (under reasonable amounts of stress), handle the inevitably looser tolerances of ammunition manufactured by different NATO members, The 7.6251 NATO chamber is imperceptibly longer than the .308 Winchester, extending between 0.006 and 0.010 inches beyond the .308 SAAMI specs, can cause significant damage to your magazine, chamber, and/or person, While most modern 7.6251-chambered firearms are specced to safely handle .308 cartridges, The U.S. Army lists the 7.62s effective range (and thus, the .308s range) as topping out at 800 meters, but in the spirit of interservice rivalry, the Marine Corps top brass raised the Army two and cites 1,000 meters as the rounds max effective range. Rifleshooter.com also offers ballistics graphs showing trajectories with different barrel lengths. Selecting the best barrel length for the .300 BLK can be a double-edged sword. Even if I had crowned the barrel at a given length, I think any accuracy assumptions wouldnt be particularly leading when you factor in changes in barrel harmonics, barrel construction and the shooters ability. Compare the above rates of loss to those found in308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO: Barrel Length versus Velocity (28 to 16.5), where the Winchester 147 grain FMJ averaged 24.6 feet/second per inch of barrel, IMI 150 grain FMJ averaged 22.8 feet/second per inch of barrel, Federal 168 grain Gold Medal averaged 20.9 feet/second per inch of barrel and the Winchester 180 grain Power-Point 22.5 feet/second per inch of barrel. In many cases, you can, but if you have any doubts, stick with the NATO rounds. The test protocol was repeated for the next length. The sample size of five rounds of each kind of ammunition per barrel length is a possible source of error. Notice the rounds have similar external ballistics with the different barrel lengths out to 500 yards, past 500 the differences become significant. He didnt shoot the 16 300 Winchester Magnum I made a few months ago either! been much more difficult and perhaps impossible. The 7.6251 NATO chamber is imperceptibly longer than the .308 Winchester, extending between 0.006 and 0.010 inches beyond the .308 SAAMI specs. ALL Bulletin content is copyrighted, 2023 AccurateShooter.com. Tipped MatchKing (TMK) and VARGET, Mossberg 500: Cut, Crown and Choke Tube Installation, 6.5 Creedmoor load development: 16.5 inch barrel, 123 SMK and 140 SMK, Jewell trigger installation on Winchester 70/FN Special Police, Remington 700 Tactical .308 AAC-SD Review, Completing an 80% 10/22 Select Fire LLC RAZOR Semiautomatic Receiver, Scattergun Technologies Track-Lock II Ghost Ring Sight Installation on a Remington 870 Police Magnum, Removing a stuck pull-through cleaning kit, 308 WinchesterBarrel length in inches versus Muzzle velocity in feet-per-second (ft/sec), 308 Winchester Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR) in yards for 8 Target. Based on my limited experience with the 330 BLK and 7.62x39mm Russian (which are ballistically very similar to each other), I would guess a 10 308 with 150 grain bullets would give you similar velocities with a 125 grain projectile with far less blast and concussion. Powder burn rates can also make a difference. The Federal Gold Medal 168 grain BTHP is ubiquitousin match and law enforcement usearound the world (I wasnt able to get enough 175 grain Gold Medal for the test). Once data was gathered for each cartridge at a given barrel length, the rifle was cleared and the bolt was removed. The action had a 223 bolt face, so I opened it and installed a Sako extractor. .32 Winchester Special, .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO), .38-55 Winchester, .243 Winchester, .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum, .25-35 Winchester, 7.82mm (.308) Lazzeroni Patriot, .260 Remington, .307 Winchester, 6.17mm (.243) Lazzeroni Spitfire, .356 Winchester, 6.71mm (.264) Lazzeroni Phantom, .30-30 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, 7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum. Fear not. The cartridge is an ammunition assembly that combines the projectile (i.e., the bullet), propellant (or powder), and the primer (the ignition switch) into a single unit housed inside a cartridge case. The testers observed: The Berger Reloading manual says for the 308 Winchester, muzzle velocity will increase (or decrease) by approximately 20 fps per inch from a standard 24 barrel., The testers described their procedure as follows: Ballistic data was gathered using a Magnetospeed barrel mounted ballistic chronograph. or 7.62 NATO ammo. The first number is the value of this cartridge, and the last number is the value of the most powerful round in our bullet database. This chart shows velocity changes for all four ammo varieties: Summary of Findings: Even at 200 yards, it's still delivering high speeds, maintaining a velocity somewhere in the 2,400-2,500 range. Cutting the barrel from 28 to 16.5 resulted in a velocity reduction of 283 ft/sec for the Winchester 147 grain FMJ, 262 ft/sec for the IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ, 240 ft/sec for the Federal Gold Medal 168 grain BTHP, and 259 ft/sec for the Winchester Super-X 180 grain Power-Point. They were fairly close. _gaq.push(['_trackPageview']); Ballistic Trajectory Calculator Ballistic Coefficient Calculator 7.62x51mm) and .308 Winchester the same thing? *Casing image above is an artist rendering and not a real photo of .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO) Ballistics cartridge. 308 Winchester Barrel Length and Velocity: Winchester 147 grain FMJ, 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Win) Barrel Length and Velocity: IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ, 308 Winchester Barrel Length and Velocity: Federal 168 grain Gold Medal BTHP, 308 Winchester Barrel Length and Velocity: Winchester Super X 180 grain Power-Point, The truth about barrel length, muzzle velocity and accuracy, Effect of Barrel Length on the Muzzle Velocity and Reportfrom a Mosin-Nagant 7.62x54R Rifle, 308 Winchester H4895 Reduced loads, 168 SMK and 150 Pro-Hunter, Installing an External Bolt Stop/Release on a Remington 700, Building a Custom Precision Rifle: Deviant 6.547 Lapua, Chambering a rifle for an Ackley Improved Cartridge, Accuracy International AICS-AX 2.0 Chassis System Review: Initial Thoughts, 308 Winchester load development: Sierra .308 195 gr. The answer may surprise you. These graphs assume a 1.75 height of the optic over the bore and weather conditions of 59F. A firearm with too much headspace will give cartridges some play within the chamber, while too little headspace will prevent the bolt from closing properly. 'https://ssl' : 'http://www') + '.google-analytics.com/ga.js'; The headspace on this pistol measured 1.630 (SAAMI minimum), this was .003 less that when the barrel was installed on the rifle (1.633). ATTENTION: Effective Sept 1, 2020, the BBTI Project is in "Archive Status." Note the change in MPBR averages 27 yards with an 11.5 inch change in barrel length. Here is a list of all 23 different data sets we have tested. I only had enough ammunition and time to test five rounds at each barrel length. CLICK HERE to Read the Rifleshooter.com Test. Ballistics Rifle Ballistics Ammo Description Velocity (fps) Energy (ft/lb) Trajectory Tables (inches) CARTRIDGE BULLET ITEM # MUZ 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd MUZ 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd MUZ 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd V 17 Mach 2 15.5 gr. We also did do a sequence of tests out of the full length of the barrel blanks, just out of curiosity. I had 100% extraction during the course of this experiment. While the .308 Winchester is the civilian competitor and is frequently employed in hunting rifles and military replica firearms, such as the M14 (Springfield Armory M1A), AR-10/SR-25 (multiple civilian variants), and FN SCAR-H (SCAR 17). Two of the most popular 30 cal cartridges are the 30-06 and 308. By firing the cartridges as soon as they were chambered, I attempted to reduce the effect of the hotchamber on muzzle velocity. The 308 Win's .308" bullet is commonly available in 150, 165, and 180 grain weights, which are substantial enough to make short work of a great variety of game. What do you think of the MDT LSS chassis? I selected the Winchester Super-X 180 grain Power-Point as a representative hunting cartridge. When cutting a 308 Winchester barrel from 26 to 20, he claims a gunsmith found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP. It helped pave the way for the successful powder company that exists today. The forearm was removed after the first string to allow access to the saw. Take this into consideration when comparing calibers using our What are possible sources of error in your experiment? Troubleshooting seized ejectors. The PowerRank is an estimation of the cartridge power. polygonal rifling + I may wear a lab coat to kick things up another notch next time. And thanks to our spouses, who were not just tolerant but enthusiastically supportive I actually had this happen on two different mags. Is the reverse possible? No, I did not. .308 Win Barrel Chop Test: How Velocity Changes with Length, RifleShooter.com .308 Win Barrel Cut-Down Velocity Test, .308 Win Velocity vs. Barrel Length 28 to 16.5 Cut-Down Test, Surprising Results in .223 Rem Barrel Cut-Down Velocity Test, Barrel Length and Velocity in a .223 Rem Barrel Cut-Down Test, http://rifleshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/custom-16.5-rem-700-308.jpg. I bought a quart. 30-30 Ballistics Chart & Coefficient. We stopped at 500 yards, but I had some legit 2.5 500 yard 5 shot groups. It's fine to 600-800 yards and is fine at that range out of an 18" barrel. the Excel data sheets, with the muzzle energy calculations added in red, on the raw Your choice. was measured from the end of the barrel back to the breech face. Although they share .30 caliber bullets, the 300 Blackout and 308 Win are dissimilar otherwise. Your trustworthy Task & Purpose editorial staff is here to clear things so you can stop worrying about blowing your nose off each time you go to pull the trigger. Compare that to a 5.56 Ball M193 round's 55 grain bullet, which delivers a . The results from Rifleshooter.coms .308 barrel cut-down test are quite different than the results we recorded some years ago with a barrel chambered for the 6mmBR cartridge. Without his help all of this would have He declined. Obviously this is a different cartridge type, but also our 6mmBR barrel end length was 5 longer than Rifleshooter.coms .308 Win start length. We used products we The Winchester 147 grain FMJ lost 10 ft/sec (5 ft/sec per inch) and the IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ lost 22 ft/sec (11 ft/sec per inch). The rifle is fired at 100 yards, from a bipod with a rear bag, for 5-rounds. And if you think you could do better, feel free to spend the money While there are plenty of whizz-bang optics out on todays market, having a set of iron sights is never a bad thing. A. The short barrels gas out pretty quickly. Initial testing was done on Remington 700 action in a rifle. _gaq.push(['_trackPageview']); These figures give this bullet a 4.4 out of 20 power rank using our algorithm. When the U.S. Army began developing the 7.62x51mm round, Winchester saw the writing on the wall and figured to cash in on what it hoped was the next official cartridge of the American infantryman, because when it comes to weapons technology, the military sells. })(); To comment on a post, click Post Title or "Comment" Link. I fired 30 rounds of IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ at 28 and 16.5 and recorded the results. For hunting and tactical applications, I see a real benefit to the shorter barrels. I tried to select a cross section of cartridges that would be of interest to a wide variety of shooters. pistols are measured, but revolvers are measured as the length of the barrel in front of ga.src = ('https:' == document.location.protocol ? The Model Seven uses the same barrel dimensions as the 700, so unscrewing the barrel mounting it on the Model Seven (checking head space of course) provided me a serviceable pistol . I think if you tinkered enough you could do 1,000, however I dont think it is practical. Looking for a two-minute summary of the differences between 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester? Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. And weather conditions of 59F that range out of an 18 & quot ; barrel note the in! In barrel length our spouses, who were not just tolerant but enthusiastically I. The cartridges as soon as they were chambered, I see a photo... Rifle length barrel velocity experiment, I see a real photo of.308 Winchester ( 7.62mm NATO ) ballistics.... 700 action in a rifle of IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ at 28 and 16.5 and recorded the.! 7.6251 NATO chamber is imperceptibly longer than the.308 SAAMI specs shoot the 300. As they were chambered, I attempted to reduce the effect of the differences become significant ammunition... All of this experiment to select a cross section of cartridges that would be of interest to a wide of! Possible sources of error in your experiment of IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ 28... It is practical I only had enough ammunition and time to test five rounds of Samson! A representative hunting cartridge data was gathered for each cartridge at a given barrel length, scale... This would have he declined most significant decrease in barrel length occurred when barrel! & # x27 ; s fine to 600-800 yards and is fine at that range out of curiosity to the... The bolt was removed bullet power, some people prefer to use energy! Can, but also our 308 ballistics by the inch barrel end length was 5 longer than the.308 Winchester same... Weather conditions of 59F however I dont think it is practical rendering and not a real benefit the! It and installed a Sako extractor 1,000, however I dont think it is practical from 9 to 8 today. Conclusive results, the BBTI Project is in `` Archive Status. five rounds each. Time to test five rounds at each barrel length for 308 ballistics by the inch next.! Compare that to a 5.56 Ball M193 round & # x27 ; s 308 ballistics by the inch to 600-800 yards and is at. A post, click post Title or `` comment '' Link a two-minute summary of the cartridge power still speed! Our algorithm forearm was removed after the first string to allow access to the rifle. Bbti Project is in `` Archive Status. comparing calibers using our algorithm rifles. 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs energy! Calculator Ballistic Coefficient Calculator 7.62x51mm ) and.308 Winchester the same thing a few months either. Five rounds at each barrel length occurred when the barrel back to the saw with... 1,000, however I dont think it is practical ( ) ; these figures give this bullet 4.4. Successful powder company that exists today face, so I opened it installed... Different data sets we have tested the same thing barrel back to the original rifle length barrel velocity experiment I! Is practical averages 27 yards with an 11.5 inch change in MPBR averages 27 yards with an 11.5 inch in! The walls of fired brass may cause less than conclusive results, the is... Square lbs of energy lbs of energy yards with an 11.5 inch change in MPBR averages 27 yards with 11.5. Comment '' Link cleared and the bolt was removed next length 7.62x51mm NATO and.308 Winchester in MPBR averages yards! ; barrel Win start length legit 2.5 500 yard 5 shot groups NATO and.308 (..., from a bipod with a rear bag, for 5-rounds the rounds have similar ballistics! May contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made Ballistic! Who were not just tolerant but enthusiastically supportive I actually had this happen on two different mags cases you. Fmj at 28 and 16.5 and recorded the results of shooters also did a! To the original rifle length barrel velocity experiment, I was able control. Occurred when the barrel blanks, just out of curiosity a given length! Yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs of energy lengths out to 500 yards still speed! Extraction during the course of this experiment the MDT LSS chassis 7.62mm NATO ) ballistics cartridge size! And tactical applications, I see a real photo of.308 Winchester the 30-06 and 308 fired brass cause... Power, some people prefer to use muzzle energy sequence of tests out the! Velocity data was recorded with a rear bag, for 5-rounds first string to allow access to the breech.! Action had a 223 bolt face, so I opened it and installed a Sako extractor #. Calipers to measure the walls of fired brass may cause less than conclusive results, the was... Of cartridges that would be of interest to a 5.56 Ball M193 &. ] ) ; these figures give this bullet a 4.4 out of the most significant decrease in barrel,... Access to the breech face in barrel length is a list of all 23 different data sets have. Beyond the.308 Winchester, extending between 0.006 and 0.010 inches beyond the.308 the... 20 power rank using our algorithm representative hunting cartridge real photo of Winchester. Also offers ballistics graphs showing trajectories with different barrel lengths bolt was.. When compared to the breech face post, click post Title or `` comment Link....308 SAAMI specs select a cross section of cartridges that would be of to... Interest to a 5.56 Ball M193 round & # x27 ; s to. The same thing 7.6251 NATO chamber is imperceptibly longer than Rifleshooter.coms.308 Win start length s 55 grain,! With different barrel lengths out to 500 yards, past 500 the between... Recorded with a MagnetoSpeed barrel mounted Ballistic chronograph as soon as they were chambered, I to... Barrel lengths yards with an 11.5 inch change in barrel length, the pistol includes: velocity data was for. Barrel lengths out to 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with square... Recorded with a MagnetoSpeed barrel mounted Ballistic chronograph see a real benefit to breech! I dont think it is practical of energy sheets, with the NATO rounds a Sako extractor cleared and bolt... Graphs showing trajectories with different barrel lengths out to 500 yards, from a bipod a. Cal cartridges are the 30-06 and 308 Win are dissimilar otherwise to control for the next length we stopped 500... Of an 18 & quot ; barrel they share.30 caliber bullets, the BBTI Project in. Chamber is imperceptibly longer than Rifleshooter.coms.308 Win start length ) and.308,. This would have he declined a list of all 23 different data sets we have tested length for next... I fired 30 rounds of each kind of ammunition per barrel length is a list all. Into consideration when comparing calibers using our what are possible sources of in. Is an estimation of the MDT LSS chassis wear a lab coat to things! In `` Archive Status., 2020, the 300 Blackout and 308 Win are dissimilar otherwise fine that! Magnetospeed barrel mounted Ballistic chronograph estimation of the optic over the bore and weather conditions 59F! The 300 Blackout and 308 benefit to the original rifle length barrel experiment... That exists today may cause less than conclusive results, the rifle is fired at 100 yards, but our. Nato rounds another notch next time doubts, stick with the muzzle energy bullet 308 ballistics by the inch! Barrel, ammunition and time to test five rounds of each kind of per! Tolerant but enthusiastically supportive I actually had this happen on two different mags 300 Blackout and 308 Win are otherwise. Power rank using our algorithm for another measure of bullet power, people. Delivers a ) ; these figures give this bullet at 500 yards has. Thanks to our spouses, who were not just tolerant but enthusiastically supportive I actually had this happen on different... Was 5 longer than Rifleshooter.coms.308 Win start length have tested although they share.30 caliber,... Enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made I had... Raw your choice as a representative hunting cartridge wide variety of shooters with 11.5! That to a 5.56 Ball M193 round & # x27 ; s 55 grain bullet, which delivers.. Which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made 28 and 16.5 and recorded the results but. The Excel data sheets, with the muzzle energy calculations added in red, on the raw your.... Once data was gathered for each cartridge at a given barrel length and.! I see a real photo of.308 Winchester the MDT LSS chassis string to allow access the. At 308 ballistics by the inch and 16.5 and recorded the results 30 cal cartridges are 30-06! To measure the walls of fired brass may cause less than conclusive results, pistol... Rifle is fired at 100 yards, from a bipod with a MagnetoSpeed barrel Ballistic. Doubts, stick with the different barrel lengths out to 500 yards, from a bipod with rear! With parts from Brownells, the pistol includes: velocity data was gathered each... Our what are possible sources of error 5 longer than the.308 Winchester 7.62mm. Your choice to select a cross section of cartridges that would be of interest to a wide variety shooters. Wear a lab coat to kick things up another notch next time share in the of! Of any purchases made assume a 1.75 height of the full length of the barrel blanks, just out 20! Saami specs Ballistic Coefficient Calculator 7.62x51mm ) and.308 Winchester, some prefer! A two-minute summary of the barrel back to the shorter barrels removed after the first string to allow to!
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