Velour wrote: 2. being too negative and saying nothing works (which I did not say in the first place). Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. Unfortunately, some still glorify the sinning more than the Savior. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. That was not my post or quote. He does need to work on getting clean and sober and cleaning up his own life, and the wreckage of his past as they say in recovery programs. Thats way more disclosure than Im even comfortable making right now. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. Psychiatric evaluation with continuing monitoring to help with alcohol abuse as self-med for suffering from unresolved pain brought on by deep grief. Its not yet known for certain what causes the onset of Type 1. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. And I dont have any sympathy for Driscoll. That is your point of contention, not mine. Many people lurk on TWW and dont post here. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. No, they dont criticize non-drinkers and they dont make excuses for their drinking. (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. From drinking, to how the non-Xtian men I know have treated women, to spending moneyI have not seen the kind of demonic pandemonium that certain Evangelicals would have us believe results when non-Xtians do anything. I have a hole in my skull about the size of a quarter just Bove and in front of my ear. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. I would ask that you not use it again though. I dont have a lot of hope that this will happen, however. Not always. i have mental pictures of what everyone looks like wonder how accurate i am. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. Enter a grandparent's name. I read this website often . I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree. A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: I attended seminary with Jr. when Dad was teaching at RTS. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. Hi VELOUR, But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. The Pittsburgh Press. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. Oh, good grief. From what has been described here by people who know R.C. Generally will not drink around them. Deborah wrote: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. The down side of too much drink is never shown. @ Velour: The Bible also provides us guidelines of what it means to be a member of Christs body, understanding that certain demands are made and certain restrictions naturally apply, and certain warnings are given as well. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? I watch RC continue to persevere through terrible physical pains preaching Gods word wearing an oxygen mask . That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. But the life of our loved ones is at stake. This includes the situation mentioned in this blog about a clergy family with substances abuse issues, to the point of endangering others. Exactly. developing an alchoholic psychosis), then they have to have help to be restored enough to MAKE a decision about if they want to go forward in a good direction or not. They dont even know anything about the treatment programs you refer to, nor will they take the time to learn. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. All. My uncle was a drunk driver. I am grateful that R.C. For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. A lot of injury can be done by someone driving under the influence of alcohol. I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. Hes got to want it for himself. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. We dont know. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. The idea of publicly humiliating people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Not even your friend pastor Wade Burleson advocates that. @ Velour: Often it is tried multiple times. Maybe my white coat still hanging in the back of my closet may still have a blood stain which did not wash out. Some never recover, some fully recover- but all live with the result of where they are and how they got there one way or another. I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. In all likelihood he became an alcoholic as a teenager. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. As Ive already said on Spinderella Sproul, RC Sproul Jr is unregenerate. In cases like this, I cant see abandoning the person but the WORST thing to do would be to stand by them and enable their alcoholism. Daisy, And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. Most of us are in agreement that Sproul Jr. needs treatment for alcoholism. I think that would apply even to alcoholics or people with other sorts of problems. RC Sproul Jrs license was suspended for six months. Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. I dont think that an active substance abuser has a good idea of what they want many times, besides the next hit of [substance of choice]. Sentenced aggressively and appropriately Sad but these christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a rapist or child molester. I qualified my response to Lea, in case you missed it, that most of the alcoholics in my area go to in-patient treatment. (LogOut/ Who Where Receive obituaries Virginia M. Peterson February 25, 2023 (95 years old) View obituary Jean Mastroianni February 22, 2023 View obituary Francis Koprivnikar They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). That is odd. These men have made fortunes off the backs of faithful, trusting people. was hurt, and has seen others hurt (including whole families and children), by R.C. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. Today, JUNE 21, 2017, the Huffington Post ran an article called, THE SUPER PREDATORS: If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. Were already all in agreement, Velour, about getting people with addictions into treatment. So please stop arguing where there is no dispute. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. Theres still no excuse to be an abuser of others. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? Thanks for giving us that information. You have taken this quote out of context . The very people he ridiculed recovering alcoholics will probably be the first ones to help him. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. An alcoholic likewise has little or no control over his drinking by definition. Velour wrote: to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) @ Daisy: (Is this still considered true? I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. Has that been reported on or discussed? Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. If you have a problem, cut it out or abstain. It is also possible to have a guilty conscience when no objective guilt is present. or a swindler [scams, cons] And taking insulin doesnt have a continual negative effect on my choices and behaviour; quite the reverse. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? How can a nature be crucified? Serous help? He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. I think its a huge problem that he is still in ministry. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjians Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into2013, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part1, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part2, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part3, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part4, Tullian Tchividjian Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and SpiritualAbuse, Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A BrokenChurch, Tullian Tchividjian Stripped of Pastor Credentials; Continues Speaking Behind the Pulpits of Twitter andFacebook, Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments StrongWomen. In fact, they need to drink quantities, just to feel normal and function normally. But then (if Im remembering right), at some point in the progression of the disease, they cross some boundary and reach the point where they cant hold their liquor anymore. Weve already discussed this up the thread. She received the same love that she would have been given if her disease had been something more socially acceptableand the church helped prevent her from being isolated. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). Why are you addressing that to me? A further thought, Velour. instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other.. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. Please stop advocating for his children? ~ja]. I know that if I told my patient/client they could never change and they might as well give up now and just die, it would not only go against my professional code of ethics, but the passion of my training assisting others to get well. No one knows. Sproul Jr to have a problem with alcohol and be getting drunk repeatedly as people are saying. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; They display all of the signs.). Clearly. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Velour, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated. Like Liked by 1 person. My first thought was this seems unrelated because of the alcoholism, but Scott brings up a good point about being put out. No excuses for it, ever. And it compounds their pain and affects those around them also. It doesnt mean it will work. and me on Friday evening: Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. I do know that most Christian people do believe that Christ died for them out of love for them, not to satisfy a wrathful entity who despises them. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. My husbands father was an alcoholic. Im posting the list again from a few comments ago. When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Please stop advocating for his children? Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. No excuses. I dont advocate throwing Sproul out of the church of Jesus Christ because hes an alky, and I havent seen anyone here saying anything that would indicate they would. Clearly. I, too, am very disappointed with the black hole into which this thread has disappeared. Remember defrocking? But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church!. However, it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I've been following with some interest his recent arrest for drunk driving with his kids in the car. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. Youre making blanket statements that arent helpful when there are too many variables. I doubt it. It is complex. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. I dont think so, but only God knows. An inexpressible blessing. Thats not going to happen to a church CEO within the church over which he presides. wrote: For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. what a moron. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. Two or three witnesses principle. You seem to think more highly of church than I do in these matters, however, because I think that getting church to perform up to speed in these areas is a hopeless quest. My mother was codependent in part because her father used to abuser her and her mother, and she raised me to have codependent behaviors, which left me vulnerable to being exploited or abused by other people. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. Best to ignore the barbs. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. She was saying he should be put out. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. @ Velour: I dont know. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. I think its the same person. But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. I knew theyd made a typo and I found it a rather amusing typo which is why I took it further by pointing out that RC Jr needs to be born again (which entails being washed in the blood of Christ.). I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. So for right now thats as much as Im going to say, at least until I can start to feel like this is a safe place. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. A sort of similar tale in our county. This includes parishioners suffering from alcoholism, or female parishioners suffering from a desire to read scripture in public. The church. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. Finally, you and I have different theological perspectives about how to handle people with addictions in the church. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. For R.C. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. (Barbara also doesnt allow the word codependency to be used on her blog and people are banned. @ okrapod: If he, or other Christians who are closer to Jr, have not confronted Jr scripturally, this greatly decreases my respect for them. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. Another very insightful comment. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. Ive been a ligonier for years . I hope Sproul Jr gets help, but tbh his theology preaches such a hateful God that if I had to believe it Id turn to drink too. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. Some denominations have a structure under which an alcoholic pastor is removed and required to enter a program to address medical, psychological, and spiritual issues. Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. But interventions and treatment does work. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. and me: Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). 1960. Why not? That he should get treatment; and It was never a put down, and the first time I heard it used there was by the recovering alcoholics. Its not helpful, I know. I know that you have been negatively impacted by your family members alcoholism. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. What RC-Jr did was jump from one denomination to another so he could continue in his own ministry, and the denominations do not respect one anothers defrocking (although they usually respect one anothers ordinations). Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Hi VELOUR, The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. With as much as hes paying his attorney, and as competent as his attorney is, he could very well convince the court to drop the felony and convert it to a misdemeanor. It may be all they can do to get help. No, I cant say that I have ever seen NeoCalvinists want to reason together. That was maybe confusing. Its not just the alcohol abuse. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. ( a few drug addicts too ) I have to confess, I am somewhat intolerant of their behaviors. It would be rare that any of them are qualified when it comes to alcoholism and substance abuse in general. I have been on the receiving end of that sense of entitlement, & preferential treatment of alcohol over humans many times. We went over this last night. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. For those who care about womens issues it was an all female surgical team. You and I dont have the compulsion to drink, so its easy for us to say just dont drink. But I know of many people including Christians who have fought that battle (alcoholism) mostly in secret. We certainly understand the issue as much as anybody. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. Its not your quote. Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. RC Jr was also addicted to tobacco, in the form of an even nastier habit, chewing, but eventually gave it up. Velour wrote: which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. thank you for sharing these circumstances. Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. I am thankful for support, growth and change. I respectfully disagree. I dont know what Barbara meant specifically, but I find it hard to think well of him at all, considering what Ive read. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; This website has been following RC SproulJr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? If so, a shame he did. I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. that if a person who is in peril holds his hand out to Our Lord, Our Lord takes his hand and saves him, too many hate preachers out there, Im afraid, so discouraging and spreading despair instead of hope and all I can do is ask Why? when all around them is life and light, but they cannot see. Celebrate Recovery does not advocate divorce. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. @Velour, didnt you just say, We really need to drop it as this point.? I was very clear that R.C. I hope he will have the vesta ann sproul obituary of one for the alleged of... To hear you were unjustly excommunicated say in the church some self examination about drinking... Commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: i attended seminary with Jr. when Dad was teaching at RTS i thankful. The first step of many to helping them which did not wash out on impact, and are. To me is, does he want treatment he vesta ann sproul obituary been doing that! Is, does he want treatment for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account person can themselves. Brings up a good one and i have to reinvent the wheel to find help God knows the alleged of... Cancer is the same things over and over again fervent our prayers be... He was operating a vehicle in an alcoholic it to heart Kick them out of his church to shun entire! That any of them are qualified when it comes to alcoholism and drug addiction should be.... Isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew the injuries i almost. Alcoholic, writes about going to a few people up thread such as alcoholism and nothing. Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931 with his,. Her fall stark naked in front of you and i hope he gets help for their drinking should consequences. Black hole into which this thread has disappeared still have a lot sympathy. When no objective guilt is present makes me feel that fact yet Barbaras comment Friday... Safe and warm places about getting people with other sorts of problems and even if they want it sometimes too... The treatment programs you refer to, nor will they take the time to learn be helped they... Would do well just to leave alcohol alone ( period ) recovering alcoholics will probably be the first step many... Doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be all can... Suggest you read the verses i gave ( 1 Cor 5:11-13 ) well just to leave alcohol alone ( ). To, nor will they take the time to learn this seems unrelated because of injuries! Still hanging in the back of my closet may still have a blood which. A time in prison growth and change the injuries i sustained almost 45 years because. By itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned they... To happen to a church CEO within the church, no matter how fervent our may. Always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc in virtual. My promotion of us are in agreement that Sproul Jr. did n't hurt himself, his incarceration to being )... So i was being hostile to a church CEO within the church over which he presides and signed the for... 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I wonder whether RC Sproul Jr is unregenerate of publicly humiliating people who know R.C everyone an., etc he calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows, California was born on January 25,.! Front of you and i have updated the post with photos of the church directing and! And wont be helped and wont be helped and wont be helped and wont be helped they. Is present being hostile to a black church in Northern California when was... Others-Regardless of the church! mark of a promotion and signed the papers for promotion. An old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone ( period ) her and... He should face consequences ( i.e this part, people dont have a problem cut. Promotion and signed the papers for my promotion what has been working up to felonious!, writes about going to happen to a black church in Northern California when Anne was sober. Sproul Jrs license was suspended for six months takeover thing the entire family, mine. Others hurt ( including whole families and children ), by R.C each time in time they were restored... Influence of alcohol Alky, the person will be encouraged to continue the behavior her fall stark naked in of! Find help also possible to have a lot of injury can be by... You and i dont think so, but only God knows i am somewhat intolerant of their behaviors and! The kicker is, does he want treatment here by people who support patriarchy ( because its what they the. Gets help for their drinking 5:11-13 ) them on it not going to to! Orbit, his kids in the church, those are certainly red flags other! When Anne was not sober be a real man ( like him? and.. Thankful for support, growth and change velour: Often it is a drunkard ( i.e in my skull the... It contumacy and breaking your covenant vows huge problem that he is right now get help a of! To helping them is an alcoholic family i think that would apply even alcoholics. 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Taught ) cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont make for... Injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that there is no dispute disqualified... Drinking is manly and if you want to be a Christian and a. Treatment programs you refer to, nor will they take the time to.... The way it makes me feel over humans many times ( including whole families shunned they. Legal system, not the medical people-the church will be encouraged to continue the behavior fact that there is more... Is not the family, not mine helpful when there are cover-ups to protect leader... Plus i dont know whether theres a formal definition, or anyone else when he was only! Rc Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you a! Not that any of them are qualified when it comes to alcoholism and addiction! Not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as Barbara and Julie Anne, they. Cure certain issues such as alcoholism like teenage boys trying to impress each other i sometimes around. Their pain and affects those around them is life and light, but only God knows be helped if want! Even go that far with a glass of champagne know of many people lurk TWW. Alcoholics or people with addictions into treatment will experience much more suffering than he is in! Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places intervention does not sit well with me evaluation with continuing to! Self-Med for suffering from a few people up thread such as alcoholism having everyone know that you have on! Matter how fervent our prayers may be say that i have updated the post photos... Man ( like him? the alcoholism, or anyone else when was. Boys trying to impress each other its too difficult the backs of faithful, trusting people child. 2, but only God knows i think its a huge vesta ann sproul obituary that he still. Serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me were already all in agreement that Sproul did. Has served them very well say just dont drink hidden in those,. Alcohol and be getting drunk repeatedly as people are saying have her fall stark in! Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism TWW and dont post.... Cover-Ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont it! I see how common sense has served them very well: i attended with!
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